Contra Stavrinides Index
Next Part
Previous Part
Contra Stavrinides
by Frank Nelte
PART XIV: "EVEN AS WE ARE ONE" (JOHN 17:22)
Dr. Stavrinides' whole theory is built on the one concept that "God is ONE being in three hypostases" i.e. ... "for those who do not mind adopting a Greek term". (The Modern Trinitarian Problem Handout, page 25)
The foundation for this whole concept is Deuteronomy 6:4. Other scriptures are referred to as further support, but no effort is made to really explain them ... Dr. Stavrinides simply reads his views into these supplementary scriptures.
In PART V, starting on page 20, I showed that he explains this scripture incorrectly. That means his whole theory falls. But now we need to examine the scriptures that talk about God being one. We will let the Bible show us what GOD means by this ... what philosophers reason out and how they think the word "one" SHOULD BE applied is immaterial.
In the New Testament the Greek word for "one" is "heis" and this is used, in its various forms, 271 times in 234 different verses. These numbers are not important in themselves but they DO illustrate very clearly exactly how God inspired this word to be used and the meaning that God wants us to derive from its usage. That is in opposition to what Dr. Stavrinides tries to explain.
"NO, because those concepts are VERY ADVANCED!"
INCREDIBLE! The Apostle Peter was given a vision of Jesus Christ transfigured with Moses and Elijah present; the Apostle John saw the same vision PLUS the entire vision of the Book of Revelation; the Apostle Paul was in vision caught up into "THE THIRD HEAVEN" (IICor. 12:2) and he was given an ABUNDANCE of revelations from God (verse 7) ... and yet somehow concepts that pagan Greek philosophers like Plato, cut off from the true God, developed and which were taken up by people like Philo, a hellenized Jew, and Origen, a weido who castrated himself, and a host of "church fathers" of the church which God in His Word refers to as "the great whore", are "TOO ADVANCED" for these Apostles!
With Dr. Stavrinides what a philosopher can reason out in his little mind clearly carries far more weight that the direct revelation that God throughout the millennia has given to His servants!
Just exactly what do you mean by ... the Apostles Peter, Paul and John couldn't comprehend the nature of God like the Catholic "church fathers" of later centuries could?
Such a claim is ABSURD!
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:20-21)
... and said that the Greek for 'one' means: in the box, "NOT ONE MIND OR IN AGREEMENT". He then threw John 14:10 into his argument, to add some confusion ...
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10)
... and said: "the Father is ACTIVE in Christ" and so WE are active in each other (that sounds a bit weird, doesn't it?), and then he went back to John 17:23 ...
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17:23)
... and said: "and they abide in UNITY OF LOVE!"
Apparently he forgot that for verses 20-21 he had said that "one" does NOT mean: agreement, one mind, etc. Two verses later he now says it means: UNITY!
It should be pretty obvious that Dr. Stavrinides is talking himself into a corner and that the whole thing is nothing more than a picky, carnal argument, a striving about words and attaching special meanings to these words. That is precisely what God inspired Paul to warn us against ...
Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to THE SUBVERTING OF THE HEARERS. (IITimothy 2:14)
Referring to "that they may be made perfect in one" (John 17:23), he said that the Greek word is "teteleiômenoi", which is "the past, passive participle of 'teleioô'", and then he said:
"YOU JUST DON'T TRANSLATE IT!"
Again, this is not right! The Bible wasn't inspired to be read only by Greeks.
Actually the clause "hina ôsin teteleiômenoi eis hen" is a purpose clause (introduced with 'hina') with the periphrastic perfect passive subjunctive of "teleiôo", implying a permanent state with "eis hen" (i.e. "into one") AS THE GOAL AND FINAL RESULT!
Dr. Stavrinides' claim that ..."there is no perfecting in the continuous tense" is not right in its implication. He wants it all to be in the past tense. But the translators were correct in translating this as "that they MAY BE MADE perfect in one". Yes, this phrase CAN be translated, as can also the rest of the New Testament. But it is not to Dr. Stavrinides' liking.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they MAY BE ONE, AS WE [ARE]. (John 17:11)
That they all MAY BE ONE; AS THOU, Father, [ART] IN ME, and I in thee, that they also MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:21)
Notice, we are to be (become) one WITH GOD AND CHRIST JUST LIKE THEY ARE ONE WITH EACH OTHER!
If they are supposedly in a "hypostasis" relationship, does this mean that we all also join into this "hypostasis"? Ridiculous!
The clear usage in all of the passages we have looked at so far refers to "being one mind" or "likeminded". That is how the scriptures use the word "one"!
Now he that planteth and he that watereth ARE ONE: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (ICorinthians 3:8)
They really are still TWO different individuals, but they are of "one mind" as far as doing God's work is concerned.
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is ONE BODY? for two, saith he, shall be ONE FLESH. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT. (ICorinthians 6:16-17)
Physically they are still TWO separate individuals, aren't they? Likewise, we can one spirit with God, yet still be separate individuals.
For WE [being] many ARE ONE BREAD, [and] ONE BODY: for (i.e. because!) we are all partakers of THAT ONE BREAD. (ICorinthians 10:17)
Now think for a moment: Dr. Stavrinides has told us that the Bible is NOT a theology textbook, nor is it a philosophy textbook and the Apostle Paul didn't understand about God's nature ... so
WHAT ON EARTH DID PAUL HIMSELF THINK HE WAS WRITING IN THE ABOVE VERSE?
Did he want to say that we all become one entity OR did he want to tell us that we are to have a UNITY OF SPIRIT IN THE SAME WAY AS GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST HAVE A UNITY OF SPIRIT?
For as THE BODY IS ONE, and hath MANY MEMBERS, and all the members of that one body, BEING MANY, ARE ONE BODY: SO ALSO [IS] CHRIST. (ICorinthians 12:12)
What kind of "oneness" did Paul have in mind here? Becoming physically one entity ... or unity of mind?
For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized INTO ONE BODY, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink INTO ONE SPIRIT. 14 For THE BODY IS NOT ONE MEMBER, BUT MANY. (ICorinthians 12:13-14)
Paul is telling us that what makes us "one" is the fact that we all have the one same spirit from God.
But now [are they] MANY MEMBERS, yet but ONE BODY. (ICorinthians 12:20)
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. (ICorinthians 12:26)
This is how becoming one works out in practice: we are all AFFECTED by what happens to any other member, be it good or be it bad. But we are still separate individuals.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. (Galatians 3:28)
Of course, there are still Jews and Greeks and males and females. Paul is clearly talking about UNITY OF MIND AND PURPOSE!
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, [so] making peace; (Ephesians 2:15)
Reconciling Jews and Gentiles into one body, the Church.
And that he might reconcile BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (Ephesians 2:16)
Both, Jews and Gentiles NEED to be reconciled to God. And the key is verse 18 ...
For through him we BOTH HAVE ACCESS BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father. (Ephesians 2:18)
We become one because God's Spirit gives us a common perspective.
[There is] ONE body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in ONE hope of your calling; 5 ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, 6 ONE God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:3-6)
Even here we see TWO different individuals referred to ... one is God the Father and the other is the "one Lord".
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, OF ONE MIND. (Philippians 2:2)
That is what Paul means all the time by the word "one".
For [there is] ONE God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (ITimothy 2:5)
Again the TWO members of the Godhead are mentioned.
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [ARE] ALL OF ONE: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, (Hebrews 2:11)
All are one, yet obviously still many separate members.
Let's look at the correct text for 1John 5:7-8 ...
For there are three that bear record: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE. (IJohn 5:7)
Now think! How can "water" and "blood", which are PHYSICAL, be "ONE" with "spirit", which is NON-PHYSICAL?
(We don't need to concern ourselves with the spurious words in the KJV here, which have been traced to Cyprian's comments on this verse to a late scribe of the Latin Vulgate writing Cyprian's exegesis into the margin of his text, whence it got into late copies of the Vulgate and then into two late cursives of the Greek ... #162 from the 15th century in the Vatican Library and #34 from the 16th century in TRINITY College, Dublin. It was from this last mss that it made its way into the TR via Erasmus' second edition.)
These three cannot be one "IN THE STRICTEST SENSE OF THE WORD"! They can only be one in the sense of UNITY OF PURPOSE ... they all work towards one goal.
But be not ye called Rabbi: for ONE is your MASTER, [even] CHRIST; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for ONE is your FATHER, which is IN HEAVEN. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ. (Matthew 23:8-10)
TWO God-beings again ... God the Father in supreme authority and Jesus Christ the Master, the Executive on the Father's behalf.
You don't have to go into the Greek for all these passages, and many others like them. We've now looked at about 25 verses where the word "one" is used and none of them tie in with the meaning that Dr. Stavrinides wants us to attach to "one". Nowhere does God say that two separate beings ever become one "in the strictest sense of the word one" ... a husband and wife are still two separate physical beings; church members are still separate beings from one another, and God the Father and Jesus Christ are still separate individual beings.
The whole Catholic idea of "three hypostases in one God" is nothing more than heresy. Dr. Stavrinides claims that the word "hypostasis" ... "RESISTS TRANSLATION INTO ENGLISH" (page 25 of the Handout).
The truth is: The Church is using the word "hypostasis" merely as a transitional phrase! Once it has found acceptance, then it will be put on a par with the word "person", always with a qualification, but the word "person' is going to be acceptable and, in fact, it is ALREADY acceptable right now!
In a letter dated November 5, 1993 Mr. David G. Hunsberger of the Personal Correspondence Department in Pasadena wrote:
"WE DO NOT MIND using the word 'Person' in reference to the Holy Spirit AS LONG AS this word is used STRICTLY, and properly defined and qualified. But, since the common usage of the word creates confusion, WE PREFER the term 'hypostasis'."
If we "do not mind" using the word 'person' for the Holy Spirit, then we obviously also "don't mind" using the word 'person' for God the Father and for Jesus Christ.
Can you see what is being done???
The whole thing with "hypostasis" is just a sham, just a transition until "the time is right" to introduce to the Church of God the statement of belief that ...
"GOD IS ONE BEING IN THREE PERSONS!"
Dr. Stavrinides knows that throwing around Greek "theological" terms in a statement of belief doesn't go down too well at the end of the 20th century A.D.. It is precisely the same as the Greek word "anothen" for "above" ... that was played up two years ago purely to facilitate a transition ... to make the term "born again" ACCEPTABLE to members of God's Church. So it has already been decided that "when the time is right" the term will be gradually phased out for the much more acceptable term "person". That should also be obvious to anyone who is studying this whole change in doctrines.
( In the latest edition of "GOD IS ...", copyright 1993, it is stated on page 43:
"Of course, the word PERSON is also a good word to use (for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) if ... one understands that PERSON must not be confused with the way humans are persons. One reason the word PERSON is helpful, if it is understood correctly, is that God interacts with us in a PERSONAL way."
... thus clearly fulfilling what I have stated above.)